The Drunken Swede

Autoweek finds that E85 now makes sense

2009-12-24T08:21:00.000-08:00

Autoweek takes a road trip and finds ample E85 outlets with low prices.

I am SO jealous of what some of you guys are paying for E85. If it was $2.15 a gallon at Meijer, I'd be continuing my experiment.

E85 experiment going on hiatus

2009-12-11T13:18:00.000-08:00

I've put about 15,000 miles on the car using various amounts of E85. I've had absolutely no ill effects. The car has yet to go to the dealer for any warranty work whatsoever. Nothing but oil changes so far!

But Meijer has been having really crappy E85 prices (currently $2.49 when gas is $2.50). And I'm losing the motivation to use 2 pumps to pump the gas.

So the experiment is going on hiatus. I may start it up again at some point, but as of now, I'm done.

Are there any conclusions I can make?

1) E85 will not mess up your car, at least in the medium term. A year and a half of ethanol mixing and 15,000 miles did not result in the gas tank leaking or any of the other BS you often hear about when it comes to ethanol.

2) Mileage does decrease with ethanol use. In my case, I lost a few mpg. Not a big deal, but a decrease nonetheless.

3) Performance is the same on gas and E85. If you didn't know that there was 40% ethanol in the tank, you wouldn't be able to tell by just driving the car.

4) E85 prices at Meijer suck. They overcharge for it. But I appreciate them having it available. I wouldn't have done this experiment if they didn't carry it.

5) Non-flex fuel cars can handle up to about 40% ethanol without throwing a check engine light. Modern fuel injected cars have a lot of built in flexibility to burn mid-grades of ethanol.

Thanks to the few of you actively following the blog. I hope others find the blog as a resource against the anti-ethanol naysayers.

Phoning it in

2009-12-11T13:12:00.000-08:00

Just publishing the raw data from the last couple of tanks...

tank# date E85 Regular Premium Left $E85 $Reg mileage speed Min % Max % Min Oct Max Oct
55 11/3/2009 0 14.515 1.885 2.26 2.36 25.8 42 13.50% 13.58% 87.80483527 87.87893415
56 11/17/2009 7.017 6.21 3.173 2.46 2.6 19.9 25 36.35% 46.84% 95.30961054 96.08605436
57 11/30/2009 7.017 6.97 2.413 2.46 2.48 20.6 29 39.55% 46.05% 95.13456591 95.89475727
58 12/14/2009 0 0 14.329 2.071 2.43 13.73% 14.55% 93.26955402 93.36555136

Chevy Avalanche

2009-10-26T11:04:00.000-07:00

A flex fuel Chevy Avalanche filled up at the E85 pump at Meijer right after me.

Man, that's a big truck. It simply dwarfs my little Saab.

I bet that he gets single digit mileage on E85.

Tank #54

2009-10-26T10:57:00.000-07:00

Tank: 54
Date: 10/25/2009
Gallons E85: 6.517
Gallons regular: 7.319
Gallons from last tank: 2.564
Price E85: 2.40
Price regular: 2.64

Ethanol Content: 40.48%
Octane: 94.63421264

Milage from tank 53: 20.6 mpg
average speed: 27 mpg

Tank #53

2009-10-26T10:52:00.000-07:00

I put a little too much E85 in this tank. I was thinking that E85 is 70% gas now, but the switchover isn't until November. You can see that I'm a little high on the ethanol content, and I was getting LTFT of 24, just under the 25 that will set off the CEL. But I didn't get a CEL, and we now know EXACTLY what the limit is.

You can also see that my mileage SUCKED, partially because of the extra ethanol, partially because of the cold weather, partially because I did more local driving for some reason.

Date: 10/14/2009
Gallons E85: 7.033
Gallones regular: 6.494
Left from last tank: 2.873
Price E85: 2.26
Price regular: 2.36

Ethanol %: 42.26%
Octane: 95.25620155

Mileage of tank 52: 21.4 mpg
Average speed: 33 mph

A lovely sight

2009-10-02T06:52:00.000-07:00

E85 is now $1.999 at Meijer. Man, it's nice to see a sign that starts with 1.

Gas is cheap, too. $2.24 a gallon. Not much of a spread, though.

Tank #52

2009-10-02T06:49:00.000-07:00

Bought at Meijer.

Date: 9/30/2009
Gallons E85: 6.008
Gallons Regular: 8.221
Gallons from tank 51: 2.171
Price E85: 2.00
Price Regular: 2.24
Ethanol content: 37.50%
Octane: 93.95031342

MPG of tank 51: 22.4
average speed: 31

Tank #51

2009-10-02T06:45:00.000-07:00

Bought at Meijer.

Date: 9/18/2009
Gallons E85: 6.333
Price E85: 2.20
Gallons Regular: 7.682
Price Regular: 2.50
Gallons left from tank #50: 2.385
Ethanol content of tank 51: 40.63%
Octane: 94.41660402

Mileage of tank 50: 22.6 mpg
Average Speed: 31 mph

Tank #50!

2009-09-15T06:41:00.000-07:00

What a milestone! 50 tanks of mid grade ethanol with NO ISSUES! I averaged 31% ethanol over that timeframe.

Bought at Meijer:

Date:9/10/2009
Gallons E85:6.042
Gallons regular: 9.264
Left from last tank: 1.094 gallons
Price E85: $2.20/gallon
Price regular: $2.56/ gallon
Ethanol content of tank: 37.38%
Octane: 93.54490938

Mileage of tank #49: 23.2mpg
Average speed: 33 mph.

Tank #49

2009-09-03T12:59:00.000-07:00

Date: 8/31/2009
Gallons E85:6.025
Gallons regular: 8.097
Gallons left from tank 48: 2.278
Cost E85/gallon: $2.20
Cost regular/gallon: $2.46
Ethanol content of tank: 39.42%
Octane: 94.00228037

Tank 48: 21.7 mpg @ 30 mph

Filled up at Meijer

Tank #48

2009-08-31T13:49:00.000-07:00

Date: 8/20/2009
Gallons E85: 6.036 @ $2.40
Gallons regular: 8.161 @ $2.50
Leftover: 2.203 gallons
Ethanol content: 39.32%
Octane: 93.98956361

I filled up at Gas City in Hammond. Their pricing totally sucks, but I was close by when the gas light went on.

I continue to run right under E40, and the car is running fantastic. LTFT is 21 to 22, no CELs. No hesitation or hard starting. You'd be hard pressed to know that the tank was nearly half ethanol.

Tank #47

2009-08-13T07:17:00.001-07:00

Filled up on 8/7/2009:

Gallons E85: 6.017 @ $2.30/ gallon
Gallons regular: 8.225 @ 2.58/ gallon
Gallons left: 2.158 @ 39.64% ethanol

Ethanol content: 39.22%
Octane: 93.83178052

Tank #46:
MPG:23.2
Average MPH: 34

E85 anniversary!

2009-08-04T13:40:00.000-07:00

I've been running E85 in my Saab for a year and a half. I've had the car for 2 years.

The car has 20k miles on it, and I've put about 15k miles on it with E85 mixes anywhere from E20 to E55. I averaged 32.5% ethanol over the entire time frame, and lately I've been running E40 exclusively.

So much for ethanol eating a hole in your gas tank, fuel lines, engine block, whatever.

What you're really getting when you mix your own E40

2009-08-04T13:30:00.000-07:00

I went on vacation the other weekend. Because I've got a minivan full of kids, overloaded with all their crap, and I love to drive fast, I fill up the van with premium fuel.

I want as much power to pass as I can get!

So on my travels, I stopped at Shell to gas up.

Lo and behold... Shell sells 94 octane gasoline. It was 10 cents more per gallon than 93, which is 10 cents more than 89, which is 10 cents more than 87.

What do I get when I mix my own E40? 94 octane.

I'm going to have to redo my cost savings calculations to reflect that 94 octane is 30 cents a gallon more than 87, instead of doing it based on the 20 cent premium that 93 costs.

Tank #46

2009-08-04T13:28:00.000-07:00

Filled up on 7/23/2009:

Gallons E85: 6.025 @ $2.16
Gallons regular: 8.003 @ 2.33
Gallons left: 2.372 @ 39.65% ethanol

Ethanol content: 39.64%
Octane: 93.94805018

Tank #45:
MPG:23
Average MPH: 30

Tank #45

2009-08-04T13:24:00.000-07:00

Filled up on 7/7/2009:

Gallons E85: 6 @ $2.16
Gallons regular: 7.956 @ 2.34
Gallons left: 2.444 @ 39.57% ethanol

Ethanol content: 39.65%
Octane: 94.28779156

Tank #44:
MPG:23
Average MPH: 30

Good E85 pricing near Lafayette, Indiana

2009-08-04T13:20:00.000-07:00

I found a Family Express between Lafayette and Delphi that had E85 at $2.09 when regular was at $2.48. Not bad!

Of course, I was driving my wife's van, and she doesn't let me put E85 in it!

Update: rerunning my "What should E85 cost" spreadsheet, $2.09 is a fair price, within the range that E85 should cost ($2-$2.11 a gallon).

Baaaaad E85 pricing

2009-07-22T06:43:00.000-07:00

E85 was $2.15 yesterday. Regular gas was $2.12. Ouch!

Pricing for regular is back up to $2.45 today. There's a ton of volatility in the gas markets right now.

Tank #44

2009-06-24T13:36:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer last night. Both E85 and regular gas cost $2.70. The bastards.

I got 6.017 gallons of E85 and 8.007 gallons of regular. The ethanol content of the tank is 39.42% and the octane is 94.2.

I got 23 mpg at 35 mph on the last tank. I did a lot of fast driving, that's why the mileage sucked so bad. I've also had the a/c on a lot, it's hot as hell in Chicago.

What should E85 cost? 6/15/09 edition

2009-06-15T10:06:00.000-07:00

With Meijer now gouging their E85 customers again, I've revistied my spreadsheet where I calculate E85 prices based on the spot market for ethanol and unleaded, including the blender credit.

E85 in Indiana should cost between $1.98 and $2.10 a gallon. Meijer currently has it at $2.70 a gallon.

Can you say gouging?

Back in the bad old days of last summer, they priced E85 50 cents a gallon cheaper than regular. That would be about $2.15 a gallon now, which I think would be a very fair price.

One wonders why they price E85 as they do. They can't be selling any at these prices.

tank #43

2009-06-15T10:00:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer on June 6th. I got 6.025 gallons of E85 at $2.70 a gallon and 8.121 gallons of regular at $2.76 a gallon. This works out to be 38.83% ethanol and 93.9 octane.

The last tank, at 39.16% ethanol, got 22.4 mpg at 29 mph average speed.

As of today, E85 is still $2.70 a gallon. But regular has dropped to $2.66. I hate that!

Meijer goes back to their thieving ways

2009-06-05T07:23:00.000-07:00

No sooner had I praised Meijer for letting their spreads widen then they closed the spread with a vengence.

E85 is now $2.70, and regular is $2.73. Youch.

Bastards.

It's too bad, because E85 was making a lot of sense at the 50 plus cent per gallon spreads of a week ago. I have to think that they were selling a lot of E85 back then, and nothing now.

Tank #42

2009-06-01T07:11:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer on the 27th. I got 6 gallons exactly of E85 at $2.10 and 7.862 gallons of 87 octane gasoline, with 2.538 gallons left from the last tank.

It works out to 35.55% ethanol in the tank and 93.95 Octane. I saved $5.65 by mixing in E85.

Since then, I've noticed gas as much as $2.66 a gallon, and E85 steady at $2.10. These are really nice spreads. It's nice to see Meijer let the spreads fall where they may, even if they're higher than 50 cents a gallon.

Was I being hard on Ed Wallace?

2009-05-19T06:58:00.000-07:00

Was he right in taking offense as my characterization of his sources as "Bernie's Garage and Hot Dog Emporium"?

I think that that's rather funny.

Anyway, maybe I have too high expectations for so called journalists. I could blog an article with tighter sources than that BW article. At least I would provide some hyperlinks.

More from Ed Wallace

2009-05-19T06:57:00.000-07:00

Woo. A little sensitive?

No, but when you open your blog with misstatements such as you did, doesn’t warrant any time for a response.

My reply:

Your article consisted of talking to a couple of mechanics and checking out a BMW discussion board. It was worthy of mockery.

Now, I think the Lexus thing is interesting. I googled it, but all I found was some press statements and such. Why don't you do a little... reporting? Talk to the Lexus engineers. What was the metallurgy of the components that were destroyed by ethanol? Was it 10% ethanol that did it?

Your mechanic buddies made a pretty bold claim when they said that they checked the ethanol content of the tank that had the failed fuel pump. 18% ethanol? Where did that come from? You seem to be slandering the retail gasoline industry, implying that they're spiking their gas with illegal amounts of ethanol. Where did that gasoline come from? Which retailers are spiking their gas?

Maybe the Lexus engineers have some insight. Are they seeing ethanol contents higher than 10%? Are there Lexus owners who are mixing their own gas, like I am, and causing problems? Or is it the retailers?

I'm just sick and tired of the misinformation out there about ethanol. That's why I started mixing ethanol in my gas. I want to prove, one way or the other, that it's either OK or causes damage. No more BS articles about mechanics and discussion boards. I want hard proof, and I took it upon myself to do it.

Ed Wallace strikes back

2009-05-19T06:55:00.000-07:00

So I e-mailed the author of the BusinessWeek ethanol hit piece:

Ed,

Interesting article you had in BW. Can't say that I agreed with any of it.

I've got a '07 Saab 9-3 that I run an ethanol mix in. I usually run as much ethanol as I can without setting off the check engine light, right up to about 40%. I've been doing it for almost 20k miles now, with no negative consequences, other than losing a couple mpg. I document what I'm running on my blog at www.drunkenswede.blogspot.com

Saab actually makes a flex fuel 9-3 that they sell in Sweeden and the UK. The only difference is the engine tune and the fuel injector flow rates. They use the same fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel rail, and fuel injector model.

You know, fuel pumps fail. They actually fail pretty frequently. That's why whenever there is a change to the fuel supply (reformulated gasoline, ethanol, MTBE, whatever) you get a rash of stories about how the change to the fuel ruined the fuel system. But what's the truth?

I'd rather see some documented sources from automotive engineers working in the field than some anecdotes from mechanics. No offense to mechanics, but they're not engineers trained in failure analysis. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a licensed professional engineer who has worked in the automotive field and who currently works for "Big Oil".

I do appreciate the news of the Lexus recall. I'm going to look into that one.

Whalen responded:

Well, to start off with, I notice at your post that you’ve completely lied about my sources for my article.

Nice. And yet you want me to read your email and believe everything you are saying.

That’s no way to get your point across.

City Garage is a well respected chain of repair shops in Dallas Fort Worth.
Likewise, so is Moritz BMW.

It is not Bernie’s Garage and discussion boards.

I replied:

Woo. A little sensitive?

On my blog, I link to articles I find about ethanol. If I had a dollar for every article written with local mechanics as sourcing, I would be a rich man.

I don't care if they're respected or not. Mechanics are not qualified to say if ethanol was the source of fuel pump failure or not. And neither are commenters on a discussion board.

I did like the comment to the article from the Ford engineer. Now that was good information, that the electrical conductivity of ethanol can cause the commutator windings in the fuel pump motor to corrode. I'll be on the lookout for that in my Saab. Ditto for acid corrosion in my lawnmower (I NEVER drain the gas over the winter).

BTW, I've got every receipt for gas and E85 I've ever put into my Saab. Should I ever get to a failure, or should I hit 100k or more, I'll be able to properly document every tank of ethanol/ gas mixture I've run. THAT is the kind of sourcing I'd like to see in an ethanol article!

Businessweek says that ethanol is "destroying engines"

2009-05-18T05:43:00.000-07:00

Here.

Funny how these anti-ethanol stories about engine damage all use "Bernie's Garage and Hot Dog Emporium" as a source. And discussion board posts.

If there is anything that's I've learned from almost 20 years of posting to discussion boards is that the level of technical knowledge there is pretty low.

The only new bit of info in the article is that Lexus is recalling cars to address corrosion of the fuel rail, allegedly due to ethanol.

Seeing as how the Saab has a stainless steel fuel rail and stainless steel fuel lines (that I can see in the engine bay), I'm not hurting anything by running ethanol.

Tank #41

2009-05-15T10:30:00.001-07:00

Well, I ran a bunch of tanks of premium, but I needed to fill up yesterday, and I mixed in some E85.

I filled with 6.008 gallons of E85 and 7.985 gallons of 87 octane. It works out to 38.54% ethanol. This will be a great test to see if this is the limit for E85 without a CEL. It's 93.93 Octane.

E85 was $2 a gallon, and 87 octane was $2.60.

Well, that didn't last long!

2009-05-13T05:22:00.000-07:00

Those BASTARDS at Meijer raised their E85 price to $2.00 yesterday, probably minutes after I posted about the 70 cent spread.

87 octane is down to $2.56.

Even so, a 56 cent spread is historically very, very good for Meijer. During all the craziness last summer, the spread was fixed at 50 cents.

I'll probably be filling up in a day or two, and I'll be back on the hooch.

The best pricing I've ever seen!

2009-05-12T13:14:00.000-07:00

The last two days, Meijer has had E85 priced at $1.90, and 87 octane gas at $2.60. This 70 cent spread is the largest that I've ever seen for E85.

I have not been running E85 for the last tank or two. I've literally been too busy at work to take the time to fill from two stations.

I'm over with my busy period at work, and will be filling up with E85 from now on, especially if these spreads hold up.

Check engine light.

2009-04-20T05:04:00.000-07:00

I guess I pushed the ethanol levels a little too far. I got a check engine light the other day.

This is pretty consistant. I got CEL's at 40% before, that's where I think that I am now.

On the positive side, depsite the CEL, the car drives great. No hesitation whatsoever.

Nice ride at the E85 pump!

2009-04-18T09:50:00.001-07:00

A guy with a Chrysler Aspen filled up after me. It's a flex fuel vehicle.

tank # 38

2009-04-18T09:46:00.001-07:00

I filled up with 7 gallons of E85 (@$1.90) and 6.4 gallons of 87 octane (@$1.94). I'm running about 40.35% ethanol in the tank.

It came pretty close to throwing a code. I saw 25 on long term fuel trim a couple of times. But I'm pretty sure that, if I was going to get a code, I'd have gotten it by now.

Seeing as how the price of E85 hasn't changed in over a month, I'm pretty sure that they're still selling winter blend E85 (at 70% ethanol content). Based on my LTFT, I think that there's no question that it is winter blend.

I meet a Drunken Kraut at Meijer

2009-04-08T11:56:00.000-07:00

First of all, I had to wait for the E85 pump. A lady was filling up a flex fuel Impala. Haven't seen ANYONE at the E85 pump in awhile. Now that there's a 25 cent per gallon difference in prices, maybe demand is picking up.

Then, as I'm pumping, a guy in a late model BMW 330i pulls up behind me. As I finish and drive over to the gas pump, he slides in and puts a couple gallons in. Then he too drives over to a regular pump and fills the rest of the way up.

He came over and asked, "are you doing the same thing I'm doing"? Turns out that he has a new 335i on order, and is messing around with E85 because of the turbos. He said that he puts about 25% ethanol in there. No problems thus far.

And to make things stranger... he works at the same place I do. With a couple thousand employees, it's hard to know everybody.

Tank # 37

2009-04-08T11:52:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer yesterday. I pusjed it to 7.000 gallons of E85 and 6.73 gallons of 87 octane. I had 2.67 gallons left from the last tank. It works out to 39.82% ethanol, and 95 octane. E85 was $1.90 a gallon, and 87 skyrocketed to $2.16.

I got 25.8 mpg on the last tank at 36 average mph. I drove to Midway once, I had a lot of highway miles on there. That's why I went through the tank so fast. I'm also working Saturday's, and I'm driving a little longer to work, to hit Duncan Donuts in the morning.

tank #36

2009-04-08T11:48:00.000-07:00

I filled up with 14.914 gallons of premium at Meijer on the 1st of April. My tank was 12.29% ethanol, and octane was 93 on the dot.

I was running really late, and didn't have time to mess with two pumps.

Tank #35: BACK ON THE HOOCH!

2009-03-21T12:30:00.001-07:00

I filled up at Meijer yesterday. The E85 pump speed issue has been fixed. I put in 6.008 gallons of E85 at $1.90 a gallon, and 8.344 gallons of regular at $1.90 a gallon. With the 2.048 gallons of 10.18% ethanol gas left in the tank, that makes an ethanol content of 35.29%.

It's interesting, almost as soon as I pulled away from Meijer, my throttle response was soft. I don't know what it is, but high-mid grades of ethanol just kill my throttle response. It could be increased turbo lag, or have something to do with the electric throttle. Maybe the ECU is confused by the fuel trims that it is seeing.

Tank #34

2009-03-21T12:27:00.000-07:00

I filled up on March 9th with 12.888 gallons of regular gas at $2.10 a gallon. My tank is down to almost exactly 10% ethanol content (10.18% to be exact).

There was a nice spread between regular and E85 (at $1.90 a gallon), but I was too rushed to do two fillups.

E85 sales are non-existant

2009-03-10T07:25:00.000-07:00

The Times of Northwest Indiana has an article about how sales of E85 are non-existant, which is something I've noticed at Meijer. I NEVER see anybody filling up with E85 at Meijer these days. Hell, even I haven't been filling up!

Tank #33

2009-03-06T12:08:00.000-08:00

I ran out of gas nowhere near Meijer, so I just filled up with 87 octane gas on the 26th of Feb. I got 13.517 gallons, and my tank is now back down to 10.63% ethanol.

Next tank will be back to ethanol with a vengance! Now that the weather is warmer, I'm going to crank up the content to 40% or so.

Tank #32

2009-02-11T11:06:00.000-08:00

Because of the Meijer pump situation, and because I was close, I went to Gas City in Hammond to fill up.

E85 was $1.90 a gallon, as was 87 octane. This was about 10 cents a gallon more than Meijer. Such is the cost of conveinance.

I bumped up the E85 to 5.020 gallons. I got 8.99 gallons of 87.

It looks like I've got 32.21% ethanol in the tank. The last tank finished at 22.6 mpg at 32 mph average speed.

Thus far, the weather has been A LOT warmer, and I'm getting about 25 mpg at 35 mph average speed.

Meijer's pump sucks.

2009-02-02T08:34:00.000-08:00

My biggest beef with Meijer is the dilapidated condition of its E85 pump. It's a continuing problem.

The last 2 times I've gone there, the pump has been EXTREMELY SLOW. So slow that I just put 4 gallons in, when I was actually planning on 5.

Considering how they price E85 (currently 10 cents a gallon MORE than 87), I'm the only one using the pump. I don't expect them to fix it.

Tank #31

2009-02-02T08:30:00.000-08:00

Because the oil workers may have been going on strike, and gas prices were still not reflecting that possibility, I went ahead and filled up a little early, on Friday.

4.018 gallons of ethanol at $1.80 a gallon.

9.082 gallons of 87 octane at $1.70 a gallon.

Works out to be 27.99% ethanol and 91.9 octane.

The last tank finished at 22.5 mpg at 28 mph average speed.

Once again, there were some really frigid temps during this tank. It started a number of times after siting at work all day at temps in the low teens. Started without a problem every time.

Tank #30

2009-01-21T10:05:00.000-08:00

I filled up at Meijer last night.

I got 4.008 gallons of E85 at $1.80 a gallon.

I got 10.512 gallons of 87 at $1.90 a gallon.

My new tank is 26.37% ethanol and 91.57 octane.

The last tank finished at 21.5 mpg at 25 mph average speed. The awful weather is reflected in that awful mileage!

Minus 8 degrees, she still starts on E25!

2009-01-20T12:18:00.000-08:00

Getting off work last Thursday, the thermometer read minus 8 degrees!

The car really didn't want to turn over. It turned over very slowly and reluctantly.

But she fired right up! Probably no more revolutions than normal.

I think that E25 is a beautiful fuel. Cheap, high octane, and no startability issues whatsoever. As the ethanol industry starts pushing for mid-grade blends, E20 or E25 shouldn't be an issue to anyone.

10 Degrees, starts right up on E25

2009-01-14T12:49:00.001-08:00

It was 10 degrees yesterday when I came out from work and started the car. Even on E25, it started right up.

What should E85 cost? 1/10/09 edition

2009-01-10T11:56:00.000-08:00

By my calculations, $1.69 a gallon! That's what I just paid!

For once, we're not being gouged by Meijer. Cool!

tank #29

2009-01-10T11:47:00.000-08:00

I filled up at Meijer yesterday.

E85 waw $1.70, and regular was $1.96.

I got 4 gallons even of E85 and 10.004 gallons of regular, with 2.396 gallons left from the last tank at 11.54% ethanol.

That makes this tank 24.86% ethanol and 91.8 octane.

The last tank finished up at 23.5 mpg at 27 mph average speed.

It's nice to have a positive spread again, and a pretty big one at 26 cents.

Tank #28

2008-12-29T14:11:00.000-08:00

I'm very tardy reporting my latest tank. I filled up last Monday, the 22nd!

Once again, because gasoline was over 10 cents a gallon cheaper than E85, I filled up with premium.

87 octane was $1.56. E85 was $1.69. Premium was $1.76.

I got 14.167 gallons of premium. The tank is now 11.5% ethanol. Octane is 92.7.

The last tank finished up with 23.5 mpg at 32 mph.

I don't notice the car driving any different with E20 or premium. They're equivalent, performance wise.

On the bright side, I saw that gas spiked to $1.66 today. E85 is still $1.69.

Cold starting

2008-12-17T14:28:00.001-08:00

I can report no cold starting issues on E20. The car has started right up even when it was only 12 degrees outside.

More on tank #27

2008-12-13T12:30:00.000-08:00

It's 21.32% ethanol, and 90.87 octane.

Tank #27

2008-12-13T12:24:00.000-08:00

I got the gas warning light today, and I was close to Gas City in Hammond, so I filled up there. They have E85 and gas on the same pumps, so it makes mixing easier. They also have E85 made by Verasun, and it was the same price as 87 ($1.80 a gallon).

Gallons E85: 3.028 @ $1.80

Gallons 87 Octane: 10.971 @ $1.80

Gallons from tanks # 26 (@11.63% ethanol): 2.401

Tanks #26 finished at 25.5 mpg at 36 average mph. I made a trip up to O'Hare, and that skewed the results. My ride back from the airport averaged 65 mph (including the local portion!). I was flying down the tollway.

The return of the price spread!

2008-12-13T12:17:00.000-08:00

We've had a little spike in gas prices in the last day. Prices jumped from $1.45 a gallon to $1.80 a gallon in a couple of days.

The good news is that corresponded with a drop in E85 prices, and there is now a 10 cent spread between E85 and gasoline. E85 is $1.70 at Meijer.

According to my spreadsheet, E85 should cost around $1.60, so we're not getting gouged too much.

Tank #26

2008-12-02T07:58:00.000-08:00

I filled up at Meijer yesterday evening.

Gas was going for $1.50. E85 is still stuck at $1.99.

I chose to fill up with premium only.

I got 14.282 gallons of 93 Octane at $1.70 a gallon. My tank is now 11.69% ethanol.

I hope that Meijer lowers the E85 price soon. I see that other stations in the area are at parity.

This is just getting ridiculous

2008-12-01T06:28:00.000-08:00

Meijer prices as of this morning:

87 Octane: $1.59
93 Octane: $1.79

E85: $1.99

That price isn't going to drop until that E85 tank is dry, but at that price no one is buying E85!

What should E85 cost? 11/24 edition

2008-11-24T09:04:00.000-08:00

I'm calculating an E85 price of $1.60 to $1.65, which would be comfortably below gas at $1.74.

Meijer obviously has a high cost tank of E85 in the ground. They're unwilling to drop the price to just get it sold off.

Daily Meijer update

2008-11-24T08:58:00.000-08:00

E85: $1.99
87 Octane: $1.74
93 Octane: $1.94

I'm switching to 93 octane on the next tank. I need to document mileage on 93 anyway.

Hits keep on coming

2008-11-21T12:51:00.000-08:00

Meijer still has E85 at $1.99. Regular is down to $1.76, and PREMIUM is a mere $1.96.

Premium is now cheaper than E85. Unbelievable.

I have to think that sales of E85 are negligible. That is probably why the price of E85 is stuck at $1.99. It's the same E85 in the tank from weeks ago!

Where prices have been...

2008-11-19T14:41:00.001-08:00

Negative spread grows

2008-11-19T06:38:00.000-08:00

Seen at Meijer this morning...

E85: $1.99 a gallon.

87 Octane gas: $1.90.

The hits keep on coming!

Tank #25

2008-11-19T06:35:00.000-08:00

I filled up at Meijer the other day.

3.017 gallons of E85 @ $1.99 a gallon.

10.549 gallons of 87 @ $1.94 a gallon.

2.834 gallons left from last tank @ 19.36% ethanol.

Ethanol content of tank #25 is 22.66%.

Tank #24 ended with 22.8 mpg at 27 mph average speed.

Worse than parity!

2008-11-16T18:34:00.002-08:00

E85: $1.98
Regular gas: $1.95

I have to think that Meijer's E85 sales are down to nothing.

NEAR PARITY!

2008-11-14T11:45:00.003-08:00

Regular Gas: $2.00.

E85: $1.99

Youch.

Price spread is simply awful!

2008-11-13T13:20:00.001-08:00

Regular gas is $2.07.

E85 is $1.98.

Ouch.

Price spread increases a bit

2008-11-09T18:29:00.000-08:00

Of course, the very afternoon after I buy E85 at $1.99, Meijer has it at $1.86. The spread increased to 30 cents as well.

For the first time since I came up with my spreadsheet to estimate how much E85 should cost, Meijer is selling it for LESS than my estimate of fair value.

Tank #24

2008-11-08T09:15:00.000-08:00

I filled up at Meijer this morning.

I got 2.5 gallons of E85 at $1.99 a gallon.

I got 10.975 gallons of regular at $2.21 a gallon.

I had 2.89 gallons left from the last tank at 10.57% ethanol.

The new ethanol content is 19.36% ethanol, and about 89.5 octane.

Tank #23 finished with 25.2 mpg at 29 average mph.

Price spread continues its decline

2008-11-08T09:12:00.000-08:00

Meijer is down to 22 cents on their spread. Their E85 price actually rose from $1.90 to $1.99, and gas continues its decline, now down to $2.21.

Not good.

Fun with multiple regression

2008-11-06T12:10:00.000-08:00

So I've added datapoints for 10% and 15% ethanol for my gas mileage and average speed. I threw out Alcohol's data, so now I've got data purely for my car. I've redone my regressions for mpg as a function of ethanol % and average speed.

It turns out that ethanol content is a statistically significant factor in mpg.

The next step was to take the regression equation and calculate MPG for various ethanol contents.

Then I looked at what price spread you need to make it worth it to use ethanol.

I found that it was anywhere from 57 to 72 cents. It's a spread that's quite a bit more than you get at Meijer!

Ethanol Producer "Poet" makes Forbes magazine

2008-11-06T06:35:00.001-08:00

Here.

Interesting company.

I recently got a free subscription to "ethanol producer" magazine. A lot of the things in the Forbes article were in there: separating the 3 parts of the kernel, etc.

E85 is $1.90 at Meijer...

2008-11-02T06:22:00.001-08:00

...as of last night.

Not good. I'm all for cheap gas, but according to my calculations, E85 should be maybe $2 a gallon.

Somebody is losing money on this. I'm guessing that there is excess inventory (of gasoline too). Probably the ethanol producers are taking it in the shorts. Verasun is in barkruptcy, I believe.

I might top off with E85 tonight. Stop the experiment with 87 octane gas (LTFT and mpg are more or less know at this point!). Get back on the wagon.

Tank #23

2008-10-30T04:56:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer again. Once again, I only filled up with 87 Octane gas.

14.736 gallons of regular. My tank is now at a little over 10% ethanol, octane is a little over 87.

It feels like the throttle response is sluggish (not much different from when I had 50% ethanol in there). I've got the ignition advance on the scangauge, and it looks like it is significantly retarded from when I was running lots of ethanol, like 4 or 5 degrees of timing.

I actually wanted to fill up with premium, but I was on autopilot when I was filling up (after 4 hours of overtime) and hit 87 without thinking about it.

Meijer changes their price spread!

2008-10-30T04:53:00.000-07:00

Just as the price spread at Meijer starts to become fair, they go and change it.

It used to be that they charged 50 cents per gallon less for E85 than regular gas.

As of yesterday, the spread was 40 cents.

Regular was $2.51, E85 was $2.11.

That's just sad. But understandable. RFG is going for $1.47 on the NYMEX, ethanol is going for $1.71 on the CBOT. So E85 has lost much of its cost advantage over the last few weeks. If it wasn't for the subsidies, E85 would cost more than regular.

Long Term Fuel Trim update

2008-10-27T14:17:00.000-07:00

I estimate that I've got about 15% ethanol in the tank.

I'm getting LTFT at cruise of 3 or so, which is EXACTLY where my regression equation says that it should be.

Un-frickin-believable.

LTFT is an amazing thing.

What should E85 cost? 10/27 edition

2008-10-27T14:10:00.000-07:00

Meijer has E85 at $2.15 today. It's been there for a few days.

They have maintained their 50 cent spread to regular even as prices have plunged over the last month.

As prices drop, E85 actually becomes a much better deal as long as Meijer maintains the 50 cent spread.

I reran my spreadsheet, and it says that E85 should cost anywhere from $1.95 to $2.10, so the amount Meijer is gouging us is also much less.

I think that I'm going to run another tank of E10, this time premium. Then back to mixing E85.

tank #22

2008-10-22T10:25:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer on Monday.

I bought NO E85, despite it only consting $2.30 a gallon.

I bought 14.1 gallons of regular, which cost $2.80 a gallon.

My ethanol content is 15.29%.

I got 22.8 mpg at 32 mph avergage speed on tank #21.

Dialing back on ethanol

2008-10-22T10:21:00.000-07:00

Since I got to roughly 50% ethanol per tank, I've found that drivability has suffered (much more hesitation), cold start is an issue (even at 55 degrees, the open loop portion of startup is rough, the car almost stalled once), and mileage isn't great.

So I've decided to run a couple of tanks of regular. This will allow me to get some good data on mileage and LTFT with low ethanol content. It's been a long time since I've run regular, and I don't have this data.

I'll probably run a couple of tanks ot premium as well, just to compare.

Then, more than likely, I'll run E30 through the winter.

LTFT vs. Ethanol Content: more data

2008-10-16T10:13:00.001-07:00

Added data from my latest tanks.

More observations on LTFT

2008-10-14T05:09:00.001-07:00

I've really been pushing the fuel injection hard as I've approached 50% ethanol.

It looks like my long term fuel trim at cruise is 24.

It also looks like LTFT is incapable of going over 25. Thus, there seems to be a risk of running lean, and pushing the ethanol content much further might not be a good idea.

It's hard to tell what the O2 sensor is going, the Scangauge scales the output from 0 to 100. I'm not exactly sure how to read it. It does bounce around alot. It will be 8 one second, and 72 the next. So I'm guessing that I'm not consistantly lean.

Tank #21

2008-10-14T05:01:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer on Sunday afternoon.

Gallons E85: 8.507
Price E85: $2.68

Gallons 87: 5.137
Price 87: $3.18

Gallons from tank #20: 3.179 (@ 46.62% ethanol)

Ethanol content of tank #21 (with E85 @ 74% ethanol): 49.35%

On tank #20, I got 22.8 mpg at 33 mph average speed.

What should E85 cost? 10/11 edition

2008-10-11T05:59:00.000-07:00

Bulk ethanol futures on the Chicago BOT are running at $1.67 a gallon. That is quite a drop.

Updating my spreadsheet, E85 should cost anywhere from $2.02 to $2.40 a gallon.

Meijer had it for $2.85 last night.

Does ethanol decrease mileage?

2008-10-06T05:36:00.000-07:00

I've got a good amount of data now regarding how much ethanol relates to mileage. I've tracked ethanol content, average mileage, and average speed for almost every tank I've driven.

I threw this data into Excel and ran a multiple regression. I wanted to see how these two factors (average speed and tank ethanol content) influence mileage.

Now, I'm a little weak in statistics, but my reading is that these two variables can explain about 60% of the variation in mileage. Average speed is a very strong factor in controling mileage. Ethanol content is not. In fact, we can pretty much throw ethanol content out, it is not a significant factor (95% confidence). But it is borderline at about 6%.

Interesting stuff. If I had to guess, if I could collect data on, say, average temperature at start, to capture the decrease in mileage due to cold starting, or average temp while driving, to capture when I use the AC, I'd be able to explain a lot more of the mileage.

The people I meet while buying E85 at Meijer.

2008-10-06T05:10:00.000-07:00

I met a crazy black man at the E85 pump. I suspect that he lives out of his car, based on his unkempt appearance and all the shit he had in the car. He was quite talkative, in an ADHD sort of way. Like I said, he was crazy.

He was driving a late ninetees Ford Escort, which quite obviously is not a FFV. So I took the opportunity to talk to the guy and find out what the deal was (with the car, not with him).

He said that he always fills up with straight E85. He said that he's been doing it for over a year, and he's had no problems with the car while doing it.

That Escort was either the last OBDI year or an early OBDII year. Maybe they're more flexible than later implementations?

Anyway, I was glad to see that the fraternity of crazy people running E85 in non-flex fuel vehicles included... someone certifiably crazy!

Tank #20

2008-10-06T05:02:00.000-07:00

I filled up at Meijer on Saturday.

I decided to keep increasing the ethanol content, despite the CEL. I want to see if I can get LTFT over 25. If so, I'll keep going higher, if not I'll back off to something that doesn't light a CEL.

Gallons E85: 8.003
Gallons 87 octane: 5.571

Price E85: $3.05
Price 87 Octane: $3.54

Ethanol content of tank #20 (@ 74% ethanol in E85): 46.62%

I finished up tank #19 with 22.1 mpg at an average speed of 31 mph.

CEL is back

2008-10-02T04:49:00.000-07:00

Despite clearing the code, it was back within about 60 miles.

I'm going to just run with it lit. I'm still deciding whether my next tank should go higher on the ethanol (to see if LTFT can go beyond 25) or just go back down to an ethanol level that just doesn't light a CEL, to see if there are any cold start issues. It's starting to get really cold around here, it was in the low forties on the way to work today.

CEL!

2008-10-01T04:54:00.000-07:00

Well, I got a CEL on the drive home yesterday. Not too surprising, seeing as that I was getting long term fuel trims of 25.

I cleared the code (P0171), but unfortunately, that also reset the LTFT.

I was worried that I'd have a hard time starting the car with LTFT at 0, but it started normally this morning. By the time I got to work, LTFT was back to the 17 to 23 range, and STFT was around 0. So the ECU adapted in about 20 miles or so.

Also, interestingly, as soon as I cleared the code, the idle smoothed out noticably. I also though the throttle response improved.

Saw the magic "25" LTFT

2008-09-30T04:53:00.001-07:00

Driving home yesterday, sitting in light traffic, I saw LTFT of 25 under light acceleration.

25 is supposedly when the CEL will light. Not sure how long LTFT has to be 25 before the CEL lights. I guess we'll see.

I'm seeing 21 or so at cruise.

Fuel rail and fuel line metalurgy

2008-09-29T07:55:00.000-07:00

I had the hood open this weekend, and inspected my fuel rail and fuel lines closely.

They're all stainless steel. Very nice and shiny!

I'm pretty sure that there are no metalurgical issues with running E85 in this non-flex-fuel vehicle.

Tank #19

2008-09-26T11:51:00.000-07:00

I filled up this afternoon at Meijer. The god damn display on the pump was broken, so I didn't know exactly how much I had filled. I had to estimate, and I was a little short of where I wanted to be (7.5 gallons).

Price of E85: $3.29 Gallons: 7.307
Price of regular: $3.79 Gallons: 6.650

Gallons left from tank #18 (@42.81% ethanol): 2.243

Ethanol content of tank #19 (@ E74): 43.40%

I got 23.5 mpg at 28 mph average speed on tank #18.

Vapor recovery is not an issue for running E85 in a non-FFV

2008-09-25T05:24:00.000-07:00

One of the claims against running E85 in a non-flex-fuel vehicle is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and thus you will get a check-engine-light when the vapor recovery system is overwhelmed.

As you can see from the graph above, that is not quite true. In fact, E10 has a higher vapor pressure than just about any mixture of E85 and gas that you could come up with.

From the graph (which is from an SAE paper), I would say that even running straight E85 will not throw a code from the vapor recovery system.

How to improve cold starting on E85

2008-09-24T09:24:00.000-07:00

A university paper on the subject is here.

This has got me worried. This paper was kicked off from the experience of a university team that converted a car to E85 in '98. They had cold start difficulties at 50°F! They doubled the fueling on cold start. Not sure how I would do that!

Considering upsized injectors

2008-09-23T05:48:00.000-07:00

I'm seriously considering getting higher flow injectors to be able to run straight E85 with no CELs.

Figuring out what the injectors are, and what higher flow injectors are compatible, is no easy thing.

It seems that the stock injectors are Siemens part number 12790827. I've seen them quoted at 355cc/min, 32#/hr, 34#/hr, and 36#/hr. Not sure which they are, and I'm just going to assume 36#/hr.

These injectors are also used in the supercharger Cobalt SS.

Just doing the calculation, at 210 hp, with a .5 BSFC and 80% of capacity, you need 33#/hr injectors, so 36 seems right to me.

Now I need to figure out a compatible higher flow injector. Just comparing air-fuel ratios between gas and E85, I need about a 55# injector. Maybe a little less, since we know that the Saab injector is optimized for E10, not gas.

What's different about the Ecotec FFVs?

2008-09-22T09:57:00.000-07:00

Found this:

Hardware changes for flex-fuel operation are limited to the injectors. Because ethanol has fewer BTUs (less energy) than the same volume of gasoline, more fuel is required to produce the same horsepower at wide-open throttle. Flex fuel engines use unique stainless injectors with a greater cone angle and higher maximum fuel-flow rate. The fuel rail matches the injectors, but it’s manufactured of the same stainless steel used for all 2.2L I-4 fuel rails.

The flex-fuel 2.2L doesn’t require a special fuel sensor. The first flex-fuel engines used a light-reactive sensor to measure fuel composition from 100 percent gasoline to 85 percent ethanol. The 2.2L has a virtual sensor—software programmed in the E37 ECM with no separate physical sensor whatsoever. Based on readings from the oxygen (O2) sensors, fuel level sensor and vehicle speed sensors, the ECM adjusts the length of time the fuel injectors open for the type of fuel used. Within a few miles after filling up, the E37 controller determines what fuel is powering the 2.2L I-4 and manages the engine accordingly.

I'm really beginning to thing that flex fuel vehicles are just regular cars with higher flow rate injectors!

Jackpot!

2008-09-20T18:55:00.000-07:00

Check this out, from a GM corporate website no less!

A new virtual fuel sensor reduces the cost and complexity of adding E85 capability to the fuel system. The ECM samples the exhaust at the oxygen sensor, and an algorithm determines whether E85 is used, as well as its mixture percentage with gasoline. It’s a much simpler, less costly system than previous systems that relied on fuel composition sensors. In fact, the entire system on the engine is simple: only the fuel rail and fuel injectors are different between E85 versions and non-E85 versions.

Did ya get that? The only difference between a flex fuel vehicle and a non flex fuel one is basically the fuel injectors. They probably flow a little more than the non-flex fuel ones.

I'm looking into the availability of higher flow injectors for the Saab.

Good resource regarding converting to E85

2008-09-18T10:01:00.000-07:00

Evidently, there was a conference in Minnesota about converting non-flex-fuel vehicles to E85.

Here is the powerpoint presentation.

There is a LOT of good information in there. I especially liked the presentations from the Ford and GM folks about the changes they've made in their FFVs to survive E85.

I wonder how many of the issues they bring up are really a big deal.

I drove a REAL flex-fuel vehicle...

2008-09-17T14:39:00.000-07:00

...but not on E85.

I had to go to Tulsa on business, and because of the hurricane, there was literally only one rental car left, a Lincoln Town Car.

Lo and behold, it had a yellow gas cap indicating that it was a flex fuel vehicle.

Sadly, I couldn't find an E85 station in Tulsa, and the car had a full tank anyway.

But if you're in the market for a FFV, maybe a used Towncar is the way to go. There aren't that many FFV cars, they're mostly SUVs.

Tank #18

2008-09-16T10:02:00.000-07:00

Well, it took me 2 hours to get home and an hour and a half to get back to work this morning, because of all the flooding and closed roads. So I decided to fill up so I don't get caught in traffic and run out of gas.

Gallons E85: 6.997
Gallons E10: 4.414

Gallons from last tank (@ 31.39% ethanol): 4.989

Ethanol content of tank: 42.81% (assuming E85 was 74% ethanol). Could be as high as 47.65% if it was 83% ethanol.

I was getting some funky STFT before I filled up. I saw -15! Kind of indicates that tank 17 was really low in ethanol.

I just ran up to O'Hare, and STFT looked much better. LTFT was around 17 or so.

Disaster! Then tank #17.

2008-09-15T06:15:00.001-07:00

Well, we got 9 inches of rain since Friday. Needless to say, there's flooding all over the place...

...including Meijer's E85 tanks! They're totally shut down. Gas City is in Hammond very near the Little Calumet River, which is totally flooded as well.

And, of course, I'm at empty.

And gas is going for $4.26 a gallon. It was $3.79 on Thursday.

I put in 5.126 gallons of E10. No E85.

Unfortunately, because I didn't fill up, I don't know exactly what was left from tank #16. The display said 49 miles to empty, and the average mileage for tank 16 was 23.2. I'll just divide one by the other to estimate the gallons left.

So, tank #17 is 31.39% ethanol. So far that large decrease in ethanol (from near 40% to near 30%) hasn't kicked off a check engine light. I was getting short term fuel trims on the order of -5.

Funky stuff with my LTFT

2008-09-10T07:17:00.000-07:00

My long term fuel trims are all over the place on this tank. It seems like they're fairly steady at 19% on the highway once I'm up to speed, but accelerating there I saw numbers as high as 24. Yikes!

And the LTFT is not as steady on this tank as the last tank. They go as low as 18, and as high as 21, and seem to fluctuate more, with 19 probably being the average.

I wonder if this is the behavior you'd expect when you're reaching the limit of the fuel injector system's ability to deal with ethanol.

I think the mileage is a bit worse as well. I'm sitting right at 23 mpg, with an average speed of 30.

What should E85 Cost? 9/9/08 edition

2008-09-08T11:33:00.000-07:00

I'm calculating between $2.65 and $2.90 a gallon. That's for 74% ethanol, which is what we're supposed to be getting in Illinois and Indiana this month.

Meijer had it at $3.38 this morning.